to point out that i would say 98% of west virginia virginians, pennsylvanians, of ohioans wyomingites, have never been down a mine. so it's -- what people have to understand, this isn't sort of a public place we're talking about. this is 35 minutes, 45 minutes up a beautiful hollow, with lovely streams and things, and then all of a sudden you come to this enormous mine. it's a private, private life. decisions are made by very few. and the effects are very many. the miners are put in an impossible cultural position. because if they get offered payment of $65,000 to $70,000, what are they going to do? are they going to say no, not interested? that's not the way it works. but when they -- and they have family, so they have obligations to that family. they have to survive and they have to take care of their families as well as keep the lights on in america, so it isn't really a choice for them, this culture. to me, the culture has to start from the top and i'm going to give you an example, and i'll be short, mr. chairman, as i always am. i was governor for eight years in west virginia and we we
